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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>meeting 2019.09.10 · t-compiler/wg-polonius · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/index.html">t-compiler/wg-polonius</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html">meeting 2019.09.10</a></h3>

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<a name="175368290"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175368290" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175368290">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>do we have a meeting tonight ? :)</p>



<a name="175368359"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175368359" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175368359">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>if so, I have a small-ish update: I have been working on the polonius inputs doc <a href="https://hackmd.io/1xAIWaJ2SKW0AmtSndGM3w" target="_blank" title="https://hackmd.io/1xAIWaJ2SKW0AmtSndGM3w">here</a></p>



<a name="175368692"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175368692" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175368692">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>it's not much yet, but it did make me wonder if 1) I should try to (understand, then) talk about the liveness inputs ? 2) how deep should these pre-liveness inputs be described ? (especially wrt fact generation in rustc itself, and that any very precise description will have to be kept in sync, while things are not yet finalized on all analyses)</p>



<a name="175368824"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175368824" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175368824">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I wasn't able to find the time yet but I'm excited to read Albin's thesis soon)</p>



<a name="175368928"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175368928" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175368928">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:09)</a>:</h4>
<p><span aria-label="wave" class="emoji emoji-1f44b" role="img" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="175369008"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369008" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369008">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>that's a good question</p>



<a name="175369068"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369068" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369068">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>I <em>think</em> a relatively light coverage would suffice, but I do think it'd be good to be striving for a canonical reference that is not the code</p>



<a name="175369128"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369128" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369128">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>can it be worked on a bit at a time ? or should it be relatively complete before merging ?</p>



<a name="175369136"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369136" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369136">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think it can be grown over time for sure</p>



<a name="175369186"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369186" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369186">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was just debating whether it makes more sense to collab in a hackmd</p>



<a name="175369192"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369192" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369192">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>but prob better to merge and maybe do some successive PRs?</p>



<a name="175369201"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369201" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369201">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway my main thing is that I plan to book some time this week to get to polonius</p>



<a name="175369203"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369203" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369203">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not super satisfied with the current hackmd yet so I didn't open a PR</p>



<a name="175369204"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369204" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369204">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>because it didn't happen last week</p>



<a name="175369219"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369219" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369219">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>part of that would be reviewing <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="204115">@Albin Stjerna</span>'s draft</p>



<a name="175369230"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369230" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369230">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>awesome</p>



<a name="175369284"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369284" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369284">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>there are a couple points in last week's list, and meta-planning in general, which could be interesting, whenever you get the chance</p>



<a name="175369373"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369373" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369373">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>Oh right hey sorry I forgot about the meeting</p>



<a name="175369381"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369381" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369381">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>Fortunately I was summoned :)</p>



<a name="175369507"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369507" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369507">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would be happy to document the liveness stuff</p>



<a name="175369529"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369529" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369529">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>(if you want to collab on a hackmd niko, we can use the earlier link to the WIP)</p>



<a name="175369573"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369573" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369573">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>Sure!</p>



<a name="175369579"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369579" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369579">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:17)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>(if you want to collab on a hackmd niko, we can use the earlier link to the WIP)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yeah maybe that's a good start</p>



<a name="175369598"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369598" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369598">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess .. hmm .. if I had an hour for polonius</p>



<a name="175369601"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369601" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369601">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe the best use of it is <em>not</em> to try and write some docs</p>



<a name="175369615"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369615" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369615">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>but rather to explore some of the "open-y questions??</p>



<a name="175369616"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369616" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369616">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>Probably not</p>



<a name="175369627"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369627" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369627">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g., providing feedback to <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116113">@lqd</span> on the "equality relation" variant of the rules,</p>



<a name="175369633"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369633" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369633">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>or the subset-eq etc?</p>



<a name="175369660"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369660" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369660">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>Also, can I review PRs?</p>



<a name="175369702"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369702" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369702">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>We got some nice small fixes from <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="119529">@Tshepang Lekhonkhobe</span>  and I think merging them would be a no-brainer</p>



<a name="175369858"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369858" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369858">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:20)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> maybe yeah, I'll do the doc myself, so you can focus on more important things. there was also the illegal subset errors vs optimization question, and the OOM question where we materialize too much stuff today (maybe the equality relation would help, if it was done in rustc; but still unclear to me as of yet)</p>



<a name="175369913"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369913" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369913">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:21)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="204115">@Albin Stjerna</span> you can for sure "review" on github, I don't think we have bors anymore, so maybe not merge per se, but I can do that just ping me :)</p>



<a name="175369918"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369918" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369918">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:21)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>Also, can I review PRs?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>let me make that happen...</p>



<a name="175369941"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175369941" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175369941">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>even better</p>



<a name="175370007"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370007" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370007">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>I figure it's good to waste as little of your mental bandwidth as possible</p>



<a name="175370065"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370065" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370065">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:23)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116113">@lqd</span> But should I add the liveness stuff to your HackMD?</p>



<a name="175370079"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370079" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370079">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>sure why not :)</p>



<a name="175370087"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370087" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370087">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think I will wait until I have ironed out the kinks of the initialisation post-thesis, but liveness shouldn't change at all</p>



<a name="175370089"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370089" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370089">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>to clarify my motivations re: book</p>



<a name="175370093"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370093" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370093">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I found it kind of hard to review the initialization stuff</p>



<a name="175370151"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370151" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370151">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>that is, I'd sort of rather try to review such things in conjunction with a nice write-up</p>



<a name="175370162"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370162" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370162">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>ah interesting</p>



<a name="175370166"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370166" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370166">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>that tries to "extract" the relations</p>



<a name="175370177"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370177" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370177">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway, I tink it's good to be working on it together,</p>



<a name="175370180"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370180" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370180">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think that makes total sense, and it would also make onboarding much, much easier</p>



<a name="175370191"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370191" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370191">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>I will I think try to focus a bit on the equality stuff</p>



<a name="175370214"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370214" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370214">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>I never really explored what <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116113">@lqd</span> did and it seems important to settle that a bit</p>



<a name="175370235"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370235" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370235">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>in particular I think (trying to remember why now :) it impacts a bit how we formulate the region error work</p>



<a name="175370239"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370239" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370239">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>well, the main thing there is</p>



<a name="175370247"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370247" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370247">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>my original formulation was done by looking for illegal subset relations</p>



<a name="175370286"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370286" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370286">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>and I thk I decided that I don't want to do that, I want to use 'placeholder loans' to represent things like <code>'a</code> and friends</p>



<a name="175370333"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370333" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370333">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>I also think we will need a decision soon-ish on how other types of errors are to be reported</p>



<a name="175370338"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370338" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370338">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>(the reason I mention the illegal subset errors vs optimization is that we can make the naive version as fast as location insensitive today, if we don't do the subset TC)</p>



<a name="175370341"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370341" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370341">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>For example move errors</p>



<a name="175370350"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370350" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370350">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>precisely because the subset relations should be considered the "type inference" part of things, i.e., you should be able to create a type system where each origin O is replaced with a set of loans {L} and you don't have to track the subset relations between origins</p>



<a name="175370352"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370352" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370352">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>er, provenances?</p>



<a name="175370358"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370358" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370358">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>"origins" feels kind of good :)</p>



<a name="175370369"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370369" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370369">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>which reminds me that we need to settle on terminology</p>



<a name="175370376"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370376" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370376">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>all I can say for sure is that <em>regions</em> is ungreat</p>



<a name="175370377"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370377" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370377">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes, which I presume a book is also good for?</p>



<a name="175370385"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370385" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370385">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>right</p>



<a name="175370394"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370394" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370394">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think maybe <em>that</em> is a good start -- let's just try to write down the "table of contents"</p>



<a name="175370398"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370398" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370398">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>I find all the terminology has a connotation of "places" which are not really "sets of loans" ?</p>



<a name="175370403"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370403" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370403">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>and we can haggle over the names</p>



<a name="175370417"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370417" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370417">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>a loan is the combination of a place and a mutability, basically</p>



<a name="175370441"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370441" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370441">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>"a place that was borrowed, and how it was borrowed"</p>



<a name="175370500"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370500" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370500">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>(that said, I secretly wish that we had used the term <em>shared</em> for <code>&amp;T</code> and <em>borrowed</em> for <code>&amp;mut T</code> -- since borrowing seems to imply "original owner no longer has it")</p>



<a name="175370531"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370531" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370531">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>(but in that case I'm not sure what the term would be that encompasses both)</p>



<a name="175370542"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370542" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370542">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:28)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>a loan is the combination of a place and a mutability, basically</p>
</blockquote>
<p>feel free to tell me it's an ungreat bit of terminology, too</p>



<a name="175370560"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370560" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370560">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah makes sense, I'll adapt :)</p>



<a name="175370573"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370573" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370573">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I find all the terminology has a connotation of "places" which are not really "sets of loans" ?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>oh, I See what you're saying here</p>



<a name="175370579"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370579" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370579">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll pretend I never heard any of this until my thesis has landed</p>



<a name="175370581"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370581" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370581">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>well, I think the answer is:</p>



<a name="175370593"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370593" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370593">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>a <em>references</em> is created by a <em>loan</em></p>



<a name="175370609"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370609" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370609">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>and the <em>origin</em> of the reference</p>



<a name="175370613"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370613" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370613">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>is that set of loans it may have come from</p>



<a name="175370616"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370616" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370616">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>does that sound coherent?</p>



<a name="175370630"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370630" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370630">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>sure</p>



<a name="175370708"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370708" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370708">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes</p>



<a name="175370717"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370717" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370717">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:30)</a>:</h4>
<p><code>origin</code> is tempting as well :)</p>



<a name="175370751"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370751" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370751">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>and also has the advantage of not starting with <code>P</code> which we use for CFG points and their type</p>



<a name="175370765"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370765" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370765">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>ha yes</p>



<a name="175370769"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370769" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370769">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was wondering about that</p>



<a name="175370795"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370795" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370795">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess you could use .. N for proveNance?</p>



<a name="175370799"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370799" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370799">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>V is clearly variable</p>



<a name="175370854"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370854" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370854">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>so actually do we have a table of the "atoms" and their letters? :)</p>



<a name="175370864"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370864" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370864">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>:)</p>



<a name="175370873"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370873" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370873">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>we could also -- bear with me here --</p>



<a name="175370876"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370876" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370876">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>write out actual words :P</p>



<a name="175370885"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370885" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370885">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me slowly learning that academic style is not actually very self documenting</p>



<a name="175370948"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370948" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370948">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>and the datalog rules can stay as is even if we use more descriptive words elsewhere</p>



<a name="175370955"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175370955" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175370955">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>A really quick way to learn that is to teach Haskell as a first programming language at an introductory computer programming course</p>



<a name="175371025"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371025" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371025">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>I started to use longer names in those too, which may or may not be a good idea</p>



<a name="175371122"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371122" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371122">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>as we're running out of time, this week I'll continue on the doc and try to read Albin's thesis</p>



<a name="175371174"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371174" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371174">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>Note that my thesis should contain a complete list of all inputs with descriptions and the relations</p>



<a name="175371183"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371183" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371183">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>IIUC Albin will use their newfound reviewing-merging powers to merge the couple PRs in flight (and maybe write a bit about liveness facts in the hackmd)</p>



<a name="175371191"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371191" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371191">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>And a table with Official Shorthands</p>



<a name="175371209"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371209" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371209">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>All of which may be suboptimal and/or wrong :)</p>



<a name="175371230"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371230" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371230">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>But thanks, I do appreciate the effort</p>



<a name="175371294"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371294" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371294">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>and if time permits Niko will do Niko-ish things such as looking at the "equality stuff"  (we need a name for that as well :)</p>



<a name="175371327"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371327" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371327">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:38)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="/user_uploads/4715/I6bM6YyHQ-rkB6sJFmO3cb3x/pasted_image.png" target="_blank" title="pasted_image.png">pasted image</a></p>
<div class="message_inline_image"><a href="/user_uploads/4715/I6bM6YyHQ-rkB6sJFmO3cb3x/pasted_image.png" target="_blank" title="pasted image"><img src="/user_uploads/4715/I6bM6YyHQ-rkB6sJFmO3cb3x/pasted_image.png"></a></div>



<a name="175371335"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371335" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371335">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>sounds good ?</p>



<a name="175371349"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371349" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Amanda Stjerna <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371349">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>That's what I used for a placeholder</p>



<a name="175371363"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371363" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371363">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>nice as well</p>



<a name="175371464"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371464" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371464">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>and of course, thank you for your time everyone :) <span aria-label="wave" class="emoji emoji-1f44b" role="img" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="175371572"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting%202019.09.10/near/175371572" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Tshepang Lekhonkhobe <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/meeting.202019.2E09.2E10.html#175371572">(Sep 10 2019 at 19:42)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>write out actual words :P</p>
</blockquote>
<p>this gets my vote... was looking at the code yesterday, had to write it down to make sense of it, and wondered why we aren't spelling out them words</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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